Tuesday, 30 September 2008

OFF THE MAPS: THE MYSTERY OF THE DISAPPEARED GLYNDWR BATTLE SITES SOLVED.

Please see previous post referring to my enquiries regards prior marking of Glyndŵr Battle Sites on older O.S. Maps but then their disappearance from new maps. Following correspondence to and from O.S. I finally wrote to the RCAHMW and eventually received the following reply:
.

Dear Ms Ifan

Thank you for your recent enquiry. I forwarded it to Brian Malaws, who deals with battlefields, and he has responded in the following way:

From: Brian Malaws
Sent: 22 September 2008 12:23
To: Penny.Icke@rcahmw.gov.uk
Subject: Battlesites enquiry
[mailto:brian.malaws@rcahmw.gov.uk]

In response to Sian Ifan’s queries to OS (below):

Could you please inform me as to how many Welsh Battlefields are:

1: Marked on your maps at present.

2: How many were marked on your older maps but no longer, and why not?

3: Are you likely to mark further Welsh Battle sites on your maps in the near future and, if so, which?

I would appreciate any information you can provide me, including relevant maps on which above are or, were marked and if such are still available to purchase.

S.Ifan.

I recieved the following reply:

"I can supply the following info:1. Depends on the scale of map. As far as I am aware, at the present time there are two shown on the large-scale digital mapping, MasterMap (Battle in S.Brecs. and St Fagans), two on the 1:50,000 Landranger maps (Pilleth and St Fagans) and two on the 1:250,000 maps (Pilleth and St Fagans).

2. Again it depends on the scale of mapping. I have counted battle sites marked on the 1:2500 County Series maps (i.e. 25in to the mile, pre-National Grid, dating from approximately the 1880s to the 1930s) and so far have found 26 battle sites depicted. Why they are no longer shown on modern mapping is a decision made by the Ordnance Survey before the Royal Commissions assumed responsibility for heritage depictions on OS mapping in 1984.

3. RCAHMW has made a study of battles and their sites in Wales, primarily for OS mapping purposes, over the last few years and, confirmed by peer consultation, has identified 12 as being suitable for mapping; instructions for depicting these have been sent to OS. They are Mynydd Carn (1081), Crug Mawr (1136), Maes Gwenllian (1136), Coleshill (1157), Painscastle (1198), Pilleth (1402), Campston Hill (1404), Craig-y-dorth (1404), Grosmont (1405), Pwll Melyn (1405), Twthill (1461) and St Fagans (1648). Although RCAHMW can recommend historic sites for depiction on mapping, OS as publishers retain final editorial control, often influenced by reasons of available space.

Regarding maps upon which battle sites were marked, many of these are no longer for sale as paper copies but can be consulted where available at various libraries and county record offices or electronically at the RCAHMW library, where it should be possible to purchase printouts of limited size. Purchase of modern maps, either digital or paper copies, is a matter for Ordnance Survey.

All the battle sites that RCAHMW has identified have been entered into the NMRW sites database, which is available for public consultation at www.coflein.gov.uk ."

Brian Malaws
Pennaeth Mapio Archaeolegol / Head of Archaeological Mapping
Cangen Rheoli Gwybodaeth / Information Management Branch

* Comisiwn Brenhinol Henebion Cymru / Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales
Plas Crug
Aberystwyth
Ceredigion SY23 1NJ


( 01970 621216
2 01970 627701
8 brian.malaws@cbhc.gov.uk / brian.malaws@rcahmw.gov.uk
: www.cbhc.gov.uk / www.rcahmw.gov.uk

"I hope this answers your questions. If we can be of any further assistance in this matter, please do not hesitate to contact us".

Yours sincerely

Penny Icke
Cangen Cyhoeddiadau ac Estyn-Allan
Publications and Outreach Branch

Comisiwn Brenhinol Henebion Cymru
Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales
Plas Crug
Aberystwyth
Ceredigion SY23 1NJ
Ffôn - Telephone: +44 (0)1970 621210
Ffacs - Fax: +44 (0)1970 627701
E-bost:
penny.icke@cbhc.gov.uk
E-mail:
penny.icke@rcahmw.gov.uk
Gwefan - Website: http://www.rcahmw.gov.uk
http://www.cbhc.gov.uk

Noddir gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru
Sponsored by Welsh Assembly Government


So, there you are, as for what you do about it? 26 Battle sites have disappeared off the O.S. Maps but 12 have been refound, so that leaves at least 14 still missing - but really, we know there are a lot more than 14 worth recording on O.S. Maps - such as the Battle of Bryn Derwin 1255 and the Battle of Coed Llathen 1257 for starters.

I suggest you first visit I'R GAD Welsh Battlefield Campaign blog at http://brwydr.blogspot.com and also view blog Ymgyrch Treftadaeth Cymru at http://ymgyrchtreftadaeth.blogspot.com which also gives some attention to this matter.

The above is a pressing big issue that, to date, has been much ignored by the ''powers that be'' (WAG, CADW, National Trust, National Parks) and the RCAHMW now needs to continue what they have at last started, and all of the other aforementioned bodies should be concerned with such as our Medieval Military History and Heritage in the landscape.


Siân.




Thursday, 25 September 2008

WHERE HAVE OUR BATTLE FIELDS GONE ? My Communications with O.S. and RCAHMW.

Sent: 24 July 2008 14:02

To: Customer Services O.S. Maps.
Subject: *FOI* Welsh Battle Sites.

Dear Sir/Madam.

Could you please inform me as to how many Welsh Battlefields are:

1: Marked on your maps at present.

2: How many were marked on your older maps but no longer, and why not?

3: Are you likely to mark further Welsh Battle sites on your maps in the near future, if so. which ones?

I would appreciate any information you can provide me with, including relevant maps on which above are or, were marked and if such are still available to purchase.

Sincerely.

S.Ifan.

Dear Sian

As the Royal Commission for Ancient and Historic Monuments Wales should hold the definitive list of Welsh battle sites and we do not hold such a list but do indicate battle sites, are you able to please provide a list of battles and their possible locations so that we can answer your enquiry?

I look forward to hearing from you shortly.

Best wishes

Tony Gray

Records Manager (Freedom of Information/Data Protection)

Ordnance Survey

Rm C363, Romsey Road, SOUTHAMPTON, United Kingdom, SO16 4GU

Phone: +44 (0) 23 8079 2540| Mobile: +44 (0) 7789 617648| Fax: +44 (0) 23 8079 2572

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/ |

Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this email.


Dear Sian

Request for Information

Ordnance Survey reference: 68847

Thank you for your email clarification dated 10 August 2008 requesting: Could you please inform me as to how many Welsh Battlefields are:

1: Marked on your maps at present.

2: How many were marked on your older maps but no longer, and why not?

3: Are you likely to mark further Welsh Battle sites on your maps in the near future, if so which.

I would appreciate any information you can provide me, including relevant maps on which above are, or were marked and if such are still available to purchase.

I regret to inform you that Ordnance Survey is unable to help you with your enquiry as we do not hold this information for the following reasons:

For Wales, Ordnance Survey publishes battlefield site information which has been supplied by the Royal Commission for the Ancient and Historical Monuments Wales (RCHAMW) situated at Aberystwyth. When updating small scale mapping we request from RCAHMW a current list of antiquities, including battlefield sites, which they may wish Ordnance Survey to add or continue publishing on Explorer and Landranger mapping. This process has been in place for at least 20 years and over time we have been adding and deleting antiquity items, but always at their instigation/authorisation. Ordnance Survey does not hold this information in list form, which is why we are unable to give you any reason as to why (or even when) we removed the Battles of Coed Lathan (1257) and Stalling Down (1403) from our ‘old’ mapping.

To include any of Owain Glyndwr’s battlefield sites on our mapping, authorisation has to be provided by RCAHW, as they are our sole supplier of such information in Wales. You will need to consult with them about these specific battle sites. If we receive acknowledgement and instruction from RCAHMW that they agree with your request, we will add these sites at the next revisions of the relevant maps. Our paper maps are subject to revision schedules which will, I am afraid, determine whether these sites would be added to any of our map series in 2009, although they could appear in our basic large scale digital data within a shorter timeframe. This will all depend on the response from RCAHMW.

Regarding your request as to how many are battle sites are marked on our older maps, unfortunately this part of your request falls outside the parameters of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) as there is no requirement under the FOIA to carry out analytical work where the information does not already exist.

Please note that your enquiry has been processed to Freedom of Information guidelines. If you are unhappy with our response, you may raise an appeal to our Appeals Officer at:

Customer Service Centre
Ordnance Survey
Romsey Road
SOUTHAMPTON

SO16 4GU

Please include the reference number above. The Appeals Officer will ensure that the process has been followed correctly, questioning any decisions taken regarding the original response and recommending disclosure of additional information if appropriate.

Thank you for your enquiry.

Yours sincerely

Tony Gray

Records Manager (Freedom of Information/Data Protection)

Ordnance Survey

Rm C363, Romsey Road, SOUTHAMPTON, United Kingdom, SO16 4GU

Phone: +44 (0) 23 8079 2540| Mobile: +44 (0) 7789 617648| Fax: +44 (0) 23 8079 2572

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/ |

Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this email.


From: sian Ifan [mailto:s.ifan@ntlworld.com]
Sent: 10 August 2008 16:39
To: Tony Gray
Subject: Sian Replying: Re: TRIM: FW: *FOI* Welsh Battle Sites. SAP 68847

Annwyl Tony.

First of all, I would like to seek some clarification. I have noted on your older O.S. maps that the Battles of Coed Lathan (1257) which took place near Carmarthen and Stalling Down (1403) which took place near Cowbridge were initially marked but not on later O.S. Maps. I have been wondering why this has happened? I would also like to know if the same situation may apply to other Welsh Battles on O.S. maps?.

1: Battle of Vyrnwy 24 Sept 1400.

2: Battle of Hyddgen. Early May 1401?

3: Battle of Bryn Glas 1402.

4: Battles of Ystrad Tywi July 1403. 'Haf Glyndwr' (Glyndwr's Summer)

5: Battle of Graig y Dorth 1404.

6: Battles of Grosmont and Pwll Melyn 1405 ''The Bloody Spring''.

Yn Ffyddlon

Sian.

----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Gray

Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 8:40 AM

Subject: RE: TRIM: FW: *FOI* Welsh Battle Sites. SAP 68847

Dear Sian

As the Royal Commission for Ancient and Historic Monuments Wales should hold the definitive list of Welsh battle sites and we do not hold such a list but do indicate battle sites, are you able to please provide a list of battles and their possible locations so that we can answer your enquiry?

I look forward to hearing from you shortly.

Best wishes

Tony Gray

Records Manager (Freedom of Information/Data Protection)

Ordnance Survey

Rm C363, Romsey Road, SOUTHAMPTON, United Kingdom, SO16 4GU

Phone: +44 (0) 23 8079 2540| Mobile: +44 (0) 7789 617648| Fax: +44 (0) 23 8079 2572

http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/ |

Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this email.


From: sian Ifan [mailto:s.ifan@ntlworld.com]
Sent: 24 July 2008 14:02
To: Customer Services
Subject: *FOI* Welsh Battle Sites.

Dear Sir/Madam.

Could you please inform me as to how many Welsh Battlefields are:

1: Marked on your maps at present.

2: How many were marked on your older maps but no longer, and why not?

3: Are you likely to mark further Welsh Battle sites on your maps in the near future, and if so, which?

I would appreciate any information you can provide me with, including relevant maps on which above are, or were marked and if such are still available to purchase.

Thank You.

S.Ifan.

.
  This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person.
 
Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice.
 
Thank you for your cooperation.
 
Ordnance Survey
Romsey Road
Southampton SO16 4GU
Tel: 08456 050505
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk
 
.


This email is only intended for the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential information. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this email which must not be copied, distributed or disclosed to any other person.

Unless stated otherwise, the contents of this email are personal to the writer and do not represent the official view of Ordnance Survey. Nor can any contract be formed on Ordnance Survey's behalf via email. We reserve the right to monitor emails and attachments without prior notice.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Ordnance Survey
Romsey Road
Southampton SO16 4GU
Tel: 08456 050505
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk